The Role of Purpose in Life and Business

In this episode we speak with Brian Gallant, a former politician and executive who is a true advocate for meaningful corporate purpose. He walks us through his own journey in finding purpose and the need for corporations to be a generative force for society regardless of the service or product they offer. A truly timely and impactful conversation.

Find out more on the Canadian Center for the Purpose of the Corporation here.

Find our more on Space Canada here.

Follow Brian on LinkedIn.

Imperfect Show Notes

While these notes are not perfect (computer transcription is still a work in progress), they give you the gist of the conversation. Enjoy!

My conversation with Brian Gallant:

Morgan Bailey 0:02

Hello, and welcome to the profit meets impact Podcast where we explore the intersection of doing well and doing good in the world. I'm your host Morgan Bailey. And I'm excited to bring you the wisdom of entrepreneurs and thought leaders that are using business to create sustainable and meaningful change across the globe. In this episode, we are going to get deep into purpose. Our guest today is Brian Gallant. He is a politician, former Premier of New Brunswick, it's also an advisor to the Canadian Centre for the purpose of the corporation, and his recently named CEO of space Canada in association for a large amount of the space industry within Canada. This was a really fascinating conversation. For me, the topic of purpose is a very personal one for me, and I think really applicable to the world today, as we both understand what is our role purpose in creating a more equitable, sustainable society? What is the role of organizations? What is the role of corporations? What does it mean to be a purpose driven Corporation? Do you have to be a nonprofit or a hospital? Or what if you're making a widget, right? Is it possibly purpose driven in that? And so we dive deep into this to truly understand the fabric of what it means to be a purpose driven organization? And try to understand what that looks like moving forward? And what is the relevance of that in today's society? So this is a conversation I know I I really enjoyed. I think it's it's really timely, I think it's poignant. And I think the topic of organizational purpose is only going to get more important. And we've seen echoes of this looking at what's happening right now in the world with the war in Ukraine. And you see, organizations are taking a stance even on that. So organizations are going beyond the typical, let's make money model. And they're trying to understand what role do they have in society? What is their ethical? What is their ethical contribution was their ethical requirements on them. So I really hope you enjoy this conversation. I know it was eye opening for me really appreciate this time with Brian. So let's just go ahead and jump right into that conversation. Hey, Brian, I am so excited to have such a purpose driven individual like you on the show. Welcome. Oh, thank you for the invitation, Morgan. And for the kind words, I'm pretty excited to have this chat with you. So I mean, purpose is something that's, you know, you've had since such a young age, right? You've, you've accomplished a lot. It's hard for me not to compare, like what have I done in life, we're roughly about the same age, I think you're about six months older than me. But you know, I think we share that that similar feeling of like when we were young, having that strong purpose and you've done so much.

And you've even premier of New Brunswick, you've you know, started an agency, you're now the CEO of a corporation, like so much. Talk to me a little bit. What's your what's been your journey about finding your own purpose? As a young as a young man, you really are to kind Morgan and let me just say, I mean, I'm very proud of the things I've been able to do. But I've been lucky along the way as well, and with lots of support. But I also don't want people to think that maybe because I have an eclectic resume where I've done a bunch of different things, that the stuff that they're up to, won't have as much of an impact, right, you can have one line on your resume and have an immense impact on the people around you, the community, the societal challenges that concern you, or even the planetary one so, so really, I appreciate that. And I and I've enjoyed my career, obviously with some ups and downs. But But But overall, I've been I've been really lucky and happy to do what I've been doing. So to your specific question, when I was 1011 years old, my parents who had worked at grocery stores and fast food restaurants, their whole lives and still do today, they had a bit of a tough time financially. So my brother and sister who are older than I, we went with our parents and we moved into this small house and shag bridge, New Brunswick, a rural part on the east coast of Canada. And we were seven in this small little house. And it was not easy. It was certainly filled with love and support. So in many ways, I was lucky. But at the same time, the financial challenges that unfortunately, far too many people find themselves going through at one point in their lives, really left a mark on me. At that age, I decided I want to make a difference. And the difference was pretty simple. In my mind at that age, I was like I'm going to help families like mine families that are going through a tough financial time. You know, later on, I would realize that there's systemic inequality, and there's affordability challenges, and there's a role that businesses, the private sector, governments, other institutions all need to play, but I 1011 years old, it was simple. It was simple for me. I'm going to help families like mine that are struggling. So when I was 15, the way that I was going to help I decided was to become the premier of the province of New Brunswick. So that was pretty cool.

Brian Gallant 5:00

Because I ended up from that point on making every decision with the maturity that I had at every step at every age, but making decisions based on that Northstar, I said, That's what I want to do. I want to be premier of New Brunswick run the government here in this province, so I can help families like mine. So when I was 18, that's how I made decision on if I would study and then what I would study at university, and I would continue to study because of those aspirations. When I was 1819 years old, I was working kind of 80 hours a week during the summers I was working while I was at university to pay for my studies, but also accepting any volunteer work that would, in my mind helped me get closer and closer to my goal of becoming premier to to make a difference. So there's no question that I would be on the spectrum of people that are focused on purpose. I was like, to the extreme since a very young age. And the one thing I would say, though, to those listening, I'm really happy that I did what I did, and that I had that focus. And I think it helped in so many ways. But now that I know what I know, I probably would tell that 15 year old to make one little change, and to not be so focused on the position, although I still probably would have wanted to be the premier, there would have been lots of opportunities along the way. And lots of opportunities after doing that, to make the type of difference that I that I wanted to see. So you don't have to tie your purpose to a position. And in fact, that's a bit of a mistake, I think I made it ended up working for me. But that nuance, I think, is still important to highlight. So others don't necessarily make that type of mistake, and it causes challenges for them. So not linking it to a position linking it to a cause linking it to priorities that are important to you, I think, would be the one piece of advice I would give myself to make a bit of a change on how I went about it.

Morgan Bailey 6:45

And thanks for sharing that.

You know, one thing I'm curious about is, you know, when you're talking about your younger years, and how kind of your your home environment or the just the situation that were you were in, right, it sounds like this purpose gave you some was to give you a sense of hope.

Brian Gallant 7:05

Interestingly, it did, yeah, your mortgage. Honestly, I think you're the first person that actually asked me that very specific question. And I think pertinent one, it did. And in a way, you know, I'm not sure this is the case. But when I was younger, it helped me cope with it, maybe not the best coping mechanism, but it helped anyways, I kind of said, well, maybe I'm going through this for a reason, maybe our family's going through this. So I recognize what needs to change and what type of support families like ours really need to be able to have the quality of life that I think we all aspire to. So I kind of framed it that way. And that helped. That helped me get through some of the tougher times. Then later on. I have to say too, though, when I was a university, I became a bit of an advocate and I became the president of kind of the is a French university, but you call it the Student Federation, I suppose for the university. And I was advocating for accessibility and affordability to post secondary education. And I just, I'll never forget when I was reading some of the reports on what we should be advocating for and the challenges, it would speak to the idea that statistically speaking, I was very unlikely to go to university, or to complete my studies. And and look, I I still have lots of privilege, I still have lots of luck in my life, I had lots of support, I had a family that was super supportive. And not everybody has that. Right. So there's lots of things that I'm grateful for. And, and you know, the financial part was tough, but, but lots of good around that. So I remember I remember being that office reading a report at one point, I was just looking at all the things that were basically the statistics that would determine how likely you were to go to university and finish your degree. And I wasn't very likely. And then I thought that my brother and I thought that my sister who are just as capable as I that didn't really get the chance to, to get the studies that I did. And same thing with my parents. So. So also tying in that feeling that maybe I was meant to go through something like that it helped even even when I was you know, in my 20s I kind of said, well, I've lived that. And I have a bit of a sense a window of what some people are going into and some it's much worse. And I have now the capability to try to make a difference. I'm now in a position where I'm thinking about these big questions, challenges and thinking about the solutions. So all of that really was a benefit to me later on. So so to your very specific and I think very, very poignant question. Yeah, it helped a lot and it helped route for years years to come to make me frame it in a more positive way.

Morgan Bailey 9:34

Right, you know, I have to admit, you know,

I've have a very somewhat similar story parallel story to you, which gives me a maybe gives that insight around the hope because similarly for myself growing up, uh, you know, and first of all acknowledge I'm a white guy who grew up in San Diego ton tons of privilege. We did not grow up economically privileged, though.

and actually realizing, oh, you know, we qualified for welfare. And my mom wouldn't wouldn't have wanted to go on welfare but similar those similar sorts of challenges and the likelihood of going to college. And even you know, i There were there were lots of people within my

you know, it within my education who actually didn't think I was going to go anywhere, right. But so I but I think there was this, there was something around that adversity, that that said, hey, you know, what, I am going to choose a direction, I am going to align on a purpose, I'm going to find something that is going to be the material to get me from point A to point B. And similar to you, I chose something I was like, I'm going to be a scientist or an engineer, I'm going to go get a PhD and do dot dot dot. Right. And I think at that time, you know, I didn't have the awareness to know that like, oh, there's, there's maybe some ego around that there. There's maybe something that's that's not totally aware around that. But, but that's what I needed in that moment. That was enough of a North Star, right. And then after developing, you know, a little more confidence myself and things like that, being able to let that go and say, well, there's actually a deeper purpose, right? That's maybe how that purpose can manifest in this moment. But there's a deeper purpose that you can surrender to that. You don't necessarily, it doesn't necessarily need to look like anything. But it's more of that aligned feeling. So I'm kind of curious, you know, you when you achieved, I mean, some of the amazing you were the you know, Premier of New Brunswick, right, which is the equivalent to like a governor in the United States, correct? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Brian Gallant 11:35

What was it like for you as you started to decouple your purpose? Right from your role? Hmm. So, so let me comment on what you what you said. And then I'll get into that, first, I just want to say I think the way that you describe how the balance between the fact that I too had privilege, and but also challenges, and within the realm of the privilege, one thing that I can't stress enough, and I just want to communicate this to anybody listening that, you know, maybe will this will resonate with, but to me, my parents didn't necessarily value education as much as some other demographics would. And statistically, now that I know what I know, that's a big challenge for people that maybe come from from, from low income or, you know, different socio economic backgrounds. But my father loves sports, and did everything he possibly could for me to play any sport that I ever played, that I ever wanted to play any level of sport that I could make, and they would put the money and time into making that happen. And I learned so much from that, that I was able to then apply to my life and helped me be able to sort of overcome personal and educational and, and all these other types of challenges that I would have faced. And the other point that you made, I just want to I want to talk upon the ego and the confidence, like, in a weird way that was super helpful. And, and when I look back at what I've accomplished, I was really lucky, like I no question I put myself in a position to try to be lucky. And I think that's important to do. And I work really hard I, I told myself, nobody's gonna work harder than me to try to accomplish this goal. But now that I look back with what I know,

it was pretty, I was pretty lucky, like a lot of things had to kind of fall into place at the right time in the right way. And, and I didn't realize to what extent I was kind of being like I was in the process of being lucky, when when I was going through it all. So I think the lesson there is sometimes you just have to have that kind of blissful confidence and just say, well, I can do this and all the things that have been challenges and opportunities of have helped prepare me for this and I'm just going to go for it, I'm going to take the risk and and look at the end of the day you're you may be successful and defy the odds, or you may not, but you will get amazing experiences out of it and lessons learned for decoupling the purpose really, really fascinating because I, I wouldn't even Yeah, it's it's, it's, I'm going to answer the question but a bit differently. But to me, it was actually so important to have the purpose defined and, and really anchored in me. Because the decoupling happens is kind of thrust upon you it happens on its own. So when you become at least in my experience, when I became kind of leader, the party here, the Liberal Party of New Brunswick, which would be sort of the the equivalent of the Democratic Party in the US for those listening, when I became leader.

And in the process of becoming leader, I certainly noticed that what I really enjoyed, meaning that I either kind of selfishly enjoyed it because it's just fun and you know, interesting and, and I felt like I was growing, or I enjoyed it because I felt it was directly tied to my purpose and the stuff I wanted to do. I didn't get to do a lot of that. I didn't get to do a lot of that daily, I maybe wouldn't almost do any of it unless I proactively tried and I remember that would increase that that concept that principle would increase and gain gain significance as I went through each step. So when I was Premier, thank goodness that I had the purpose anchor because if not, there's so many fires to put out, there's so many things to do, there's so many interesting things that you might find kind of cool. There's people that want your time, there's days that are really tough for you, you have a tough time really trying to get anything done. And, and with all that, you need that anchor, you need to know why you were doing this in the first place. And look, I would go a week, I would go two weeks and say, I don't think I did anything that really advanced What I care deeply about what I've been doing this for, and, and, you know, maybe last a few days, but at least with that anchor that I had, I was able to kind of get back on track and start to think of some of the the big pieces that I wanted to put forward. And anybody that gets into politics and from any country, frankly, and anybody that gets into some type of leadership position, or some type of organization where it's fast paced, and I think they have that challenge. So so making sure that there's a reflection before understanding why you're doing something will be so helpful in practically getting it done. And I would argue when it comes to politics, it was helpful when I was making decisions, it was helpful when I was giving speeches, it was helpful when I was interacting with somebody on a handshake. I don't know if people do that anymore these days. But but all of those interactions, all of those opportunities were made a little easier. Because I knew why I was doing it. So if somebody asked me a question about something I really hadn't thought about yet, or just was emerging just happened that morning, I would try to quickly apply Well, what why am I doing this, and what's the right thing to say do position to take whatever might be decision to make whatever it might be, to advance why I was doing this in the first place, those that don't have that, I would think going through the tough days, and being able to focus on something that's kind of bigger than just the position itself would be very tough if they don't have that kind of purpose anchored in them from from before they started.

Morgan Bailey 17:01

Yeah, and those are such wise words. And over here, I'm like, so giddy about this conversation, because I've thought so much about this. And particularly, you know, around, yeah, without that anchoring of your purpose, right, it is so easy for the you know, the wind is swept you sweep you in one direction, you know, versus the other. And I think and when it comes to, you know, maybe shifting a little bit to organizational purpose, right, because that's obviously a big part of what you've done is, a lot of times we, you know, do or, you know, thinking through do organizations really go through the purpose of really getting anchored in their purpose, right. And I think it's easy for us to forget, you know, we have like these on off switches, right. Like we go into the office, I'll say, Okay, we're in business mode, here, here are the metrics, right? We got our, you know, quarterly reviews, you know, we have our shareholders, we have our finances, right, all of a sudden we get in that mode, maybe we have a picture of our family on the desk, right? Which is one sort of anchor, right? But beyond that, it's like the rest of the world is shut out. Right. And the way the reason I mentioned like the picture on the desk is because because that is one of those things, right? Like, if you have that picture on your desk, and somebody comes to talk to you a policy decision, you look over and glance at your kids, you can think, well, how is this going to affect my kids, you can pull that perspective in. But when it comes to, you know, when it comes to the world is much more complex, there's not just family, there's environment, there's society, you know, there's there's business needs, things of that nature, right, that you kind of have to if making business decisions now is a lot more complex. So when you're anchored into that purpose, and this is what I believe, and this is one thing that I'm really passionate about is was as organizations really get deeper, more deeply anchored in a purpose. It makes their ability to make decisions much easier, right? Because they have those metrics, which they're like, Oh, actually, this is what we're aiming for. And this is not. So that was my little diatribe. Well

Brian Gallant 19:05

said well said. And, you know, look, I'll just add, that when you're a large organization, if you have a very clear purpose, you're going to be that much more efficient and productive. Because to your point, a real authentic purpose is driving choice. Yeah, both is driving the choices and decisions being made. And everybody's aware of the purpose, everybody's aware of the values that are framing the way in which decisions can be made, you're going to be that much more efficient, because everybody all levels of the of the organization are going to be aware of what decisions they should make based on that. And it's going to make decision processes all that much more streamlined, which is which is just wonderful language for business, but at any any organization. And the one thing you mentioned that I have to add because again, for people listening, a lesson that I learned that I believe to be true, is when when you name the kind of the you Don't mundane for some people mundane work tasks. What I want to make sure people recognize from my experience is that when we say follow your passion, we often get this impression that we are talking about enjoying every moment of the work that you're doing. It's it's rainbows and unicorns, right? It's, it's all positive. And it's actually my experience is actually the opposite. Because if you're, if you're passionate about it, the point of being passionate is that you're going to go further, you're going to do something that's harder, you're going to do mundane stuff, you're going to do things that just need to get done to advance your passion to adventure, cost, adventure purpose. So so to me, it was actually the opposite. I was doing things that were really tough, grueling, that you know, anybody, I'm sure it's the way this way in the US to you get insulted online every single day, right? Like you, you go to the grocery store, and even if you're tired, there's people there that are going to see you maybe for the first time, and they want to talk about a file talk about an issue. So I mean, it's it's really tough, but but it was worth it. And I was able to do it and go through the tough, grueling parts, because I was passionate about the opportunity was providing me to advance my purpose. So I just want to say, especially to any young people listening, because we often give them the advice, follow your passion. But but don't equip don't make the equivalent of saying, Okay, well, if I follow my passion, everything I do in my job should be tons of fun, and I should love it. Because I would argue that my experience was was actually the opposite.

Morgan Bailey 21:32

Yeah, I mean, I couldn't resonate with with that more. So my purpose is around creating meaningful dialogue, for social change. Right. And I'll tell you what, that's every day, um, that that means that I often laugh, because I'm like, that means I have to be the guy having the heart uncomfortable conversations. And these are uncomfortable conversations. For me. Recently, I've been working with groups of doing a lot of deep dialogue around racial equity. And that's a really hard conversation for me, as a white guy who's got to understand his own privilege, you know, having conversations with people who have trauma, understanding how to have conversations around that, as you know, and it while being respectful. I'm like, This is not easy. And sometimes, like, Why did I pick a purpose that puts me in this difficult conversations? Right, exactly. You're absolutely right. Because that purpose, but it keeps you moving. Right. And it gives you it gives you that that level of fortitude, to be able to see through some of the challenging things, right, because purpose isn't always about fun. Right. And and when you you know, I sometimes talk a lot about, you know, like the hero's journey, right? You know, the hero's journey is, you know, somebody has a life, there's disruption, they go through hardship they overcome right. Now, when we think about the hero's journey, and and we think about, like we think about our favorite heroic movie or something, right, and you think about what's your favorite part of that? Right? We rarely really appreciate that the person in the moment when they're on the podium, right? When they're done. Like, we really value that person when they're going through the adversity in the hardship. Yeah. When their purpose is driving them through it, right. So when they're in the arena, that's like, we want to be like that person. Yeah. But oftentimes, when we're in the arena, we're facing the hardship, we're like, Man, I won't be on the podium. Yeah. But that's not the part of the story. We look back on and feel good about, right. Yeah, I think our purpose really allows us to perform to see through and to commit. So I want to shift now a little bit towards continuing this conversation around purpose. Because I know that you know, you were, you know, recently the CEO of the Center for the center. And this is a mouthful for me. Yeah. Center for the purpose of the corporation. Yeah, right. Talk to me, that that's, uh, when I mentioned that to people. They're like, what is that? So tell us a little bit?

Brian Gallant 23:56

Well, it's interesting. I Well, first off on the name just because it does help answer the question. We debated we discussed what the name should be. And essentially, we landed on using the term purpose of the corporation, which embodies a whole conversation, that that is happening globally, which essentially boils down to what is the role of business in society? People kind of focalize that conversation on corporations. I get why because corporations are probably the ones, the entities that are the best place to make a difference. Some would argue the other side of that coin, that they're the ones that are causing the most trouble and the most challenges for society and planet. They are certainly the ones that are maybe more complex because they're sometimes and often the larger ones are multinational. So it focuses on corporation but it's for any any entity the concepts the same. It's what is the role of a business private sector corporation, company in society. And the idea is, is that were for us humanity, right? A few years and a decade feels like a long time. But in the grand scheme of humanity, that's not a lot at all right. So we're, we're in this kind of period where there's this transition, there's this discussion about AI, about, you know, paraphrasing, while we think that we got to get away from the Milton Friedman approach of the 1970s, where a corporation and by extension, a business is only supposed to be focused on profits, only supposed to be focused on creating value for its shareholders or obviously a different entity, perhaps their owners or capital providers, whatever it might be. And getting away from that, too. Yeah, sure. That's, that's a part of what a corporation a business a company should be doing. But there's all these other stakeholders, there's all these other considerations like environment like this, like societal challenges, that should be a part of their of their decision making process. Now, a bunch of businesses will say, and I agree to a certain extent, I mean, for the most part, they'll say, Well, yeah, of course, we consider those things. So let's let's not be too, you know, sort of, sort of dogmatic about it. Yeah, of course they do. They, I'm sure they think about their stakeholders. But I think the idea is that the importance that you put on the weight you put on the considerations of other stakeholders, other than shareholders, other than capital providers, investors, owners needs to be enhanced. We need to have businesses, and by the way, all institutions really, but the, but the focus of this conversation is certainly around business. We need business to be stepping up doing more to help tackle societal and planetary challenges. And for those listening, they're trying to wrap their head around what we you know what we mean by this conversation, one, one way that I like to put it and somebody I had interviewed at one point for a project and kind of put it this way to paraphrase. They basically said, Well, if if a business is created, corporation is created, and it's not to provide value to society to plan it, then who is it providing value to right? And and it's obviously a pretty simplistic way of saying, because we know the answer, it will be a very few members of society, right? A very few, such as shareholders, such as investors, whatever the case may be, but but I think that is the kind of principle at the end of the day, we should be able to expect that all institutions, including business, are doing things that are improving the quality of life, that are strengthening society that are helping us tackle environmental challenges, like climate change, and and not the opposite, that they're not exacerbating these problems, or maybe carrying tearing up some of the foundations of our society, and not contributing value to the masses as much as they can.

Morgan Bailey 27:50

Yeah, I mean, you're preaching to the choir here. So it's something that, you know, I've been thinking a lot about, and let's say I have a strong position on but I'll pose this question to you is, in modern society, it is there room for corporations that are not purpose driven?

Brian Gallant 28:13

Well, so there shouldn't be right. And let's but let's think about what we mean by that. I mean, being purpose driven, does not mean you don't look to be profitable, does not mean that you look to not be financially sustainable. I mean, that wouldn't be wouldn't be very, wouldn't be very helpful for the long term, even if the organization was doing great things, because they won't be able to do it for very long. So I just want to make sure that when we're saying, because often people will kind of conflate this okay, purpose that profits don't matter anymore. Like it's a social business. The idea is that there shouldn't, there shouldn't be a demarcation right? It shouldn't be that a business is just allowed to focus on profits, it needs to think about the communities in which it operates, it needs to think about society and needs to think about its impact on the planet on the environment. And having a holistic view of its impact is is is the way forward. And there are many arguments, statistics data reports that would say that will have in the long term actually be more beneficial for the business corporation, it'll be more profitable in the long term. So it just makes sense for them to be purpose driven. And, and again, I want to kind of make some some demarcations because I've certainly had this conversation, often before, right, CSR. So corporate social responsibility, philanthropy, even ESG to some extent, these are all things that we talk about in this in this topic, for sure. But the difference is, is that we don't want a bunch of businesses that are able to make tons of money, but do so in a way that may be detrimental to society and your planet. And then they say, Well, we're going to donate a fraction of our profits to good causes. And that should be okay that system should be okay in some would argue But, but that's that we got to get away from that because obviously, the harm that would be created by making profits in a way that is is detrimental to society and our planet are not outweighing the the investments that they may be making to certain causes. So we got to get into this mode where every organization is built on the idea of solving problems for society solving problems for planet. And if they do that, they'll be very successful. Right? I mean, think, you know, all of you listening, just think of a societal problem, think of a planetary problem for business solve that, would they not make tons of money? They would do very well. Right. So it's, it's a profitable, it's a profitable, profitable way in which to do business? The way and the last point I'll make is I know again, some that are thinking and trying to get the wheels turning, trying to think this through, they'll say, Well, how do you measure that? Who decides? What's what's good? What's what's not so good for planet and society? That's a tough question. It really is. The best answer I've probably come up with are the UN SDGs. It's an international effort to essentially list off what we should want to have improved for a good quality of life for people across the planet. There's 17 of them. And and what's important, is that a business not say, Well, we're doing really well on three of those, Oh, are we ever improving three of those, if they're making it worse for 14 others? Right, like, there's got to be a sort of holistic approach to an organization to say these 17 SDGs? Are we having a positive impact on them? Or at least being neutral and not having a negative one as we improve others? And if we could all do that? What a world we live in? Right?

Morgan Bailey 31:43

Yeah, absolutely. And it's my belief that I think is, as we move forward as humanity, that that, you know, I think if we're going to survive, that's just got to be the norm. Right, these organizations who are really causing more detriment than good, they won't have a place people say, hey, look, you know, our, our waters polluted, right? Incoming quality is massive, right? It's gonna be, you know, there's going to be and we're starting to see more public backlash. Now, what we're seeing here is like that this need for a mindset shift, right? Because what one thing that we know, in organizations a lot, they think, on a quarter to quarter basis, right, which is a very limited timescale, right? And you think about in that quarter to quarter basis, the impact that they can have on society in the environment, can be decades, even centuries, right? Based on decisions made to meet needs in the quarter. Right? So it's kind of like saying, You're gonna, you're gonna make the next 10 years of your life decisions based on what you need in the next two weeks. Mm hmm. You know, if we were to live like that would be disastrous for us. Right. However, that's how that's how businesses act currently. So talk to me a little bit about like, so how do we precipitate this this mindset shift towards a way that looks at more of that long term, more that holistic, more that complex thinking that's able to take in the myriad of variables that that we are experiencing?

Brian Gallant 33:16

Let me start my answer by saying that I want to sympathize with with business leaders. And I'll sympathize on a personal level, because when I ran a government, I think it would be very similar, if not maybe exacerbated, where you have lots of expectations, lots of lots of challenges, lots of priorities, tons of things coming at you. And much like business, short time to do it. If there's there's nobody that gets to be the premier or governor or president or prime minister for their life, they get a window in which they get to try to make a difference for those positions. So I can sympathize. It's not an easy time to be a leader. And by the way, it's not an easy time to be a political leader. It's not an easy time to be a business leader. And it's not easy. I sympathize with them as individuals, but it's not easy for a reason. It's not easy, because people are getting to the extent that they really want change, change your mindset.

Fundamental, change the way we do things. So let's take Canadians, for example. And I think there's some studies that I that I saw, although I won't speak to them, because it's not our organization that did them. But that that would say that the polling and the surveys would be similar. So here in Canada, 55% of Canadians would want to see capitalism modernized, to be more sustainable, to be more equitable and to be more inclusive. So that's the majority is the majority of people. What's interesting is not as many as you may think, want capitalism completely removed, completely replaced. Only about a quarter of Canadians want that. And then actually less than that, I think it's about 16 17%. And then and then a quarter of Canadians would say everything's fine with capitalism, you know, it's not bad. But status quo is what we choose. So 55% I mean, it's a clear, clear majority that want some significant reforms so that we have a more inclusive a fair, and sustainable society and economic system. And what I, I'm going to make an analogy, nobody's gonna be surprised here. So I like hockey. So the Canadian making making a bit of a hockey reference here. But I want to sympathize too. And to your question of how we do this, I just want to, again, sympathize a bit, because it's important to put in context, if we had some of the best hockey players in the NHL, say, you know, what, enough is enough. And I'm just inventing this here, that's not a movement, but just inventing his movement. Enough is enough, like, we got to stop checking that that's not hockey. That's not what we're about. We're about skills. And we're about, you know, the, the passion of the game not checking, let's say, and you could have the best players say that. But if there's only you know, 1520 of them, and they go out on the ice, and they say, Well, I'm not going to check, because you know, we're not doing that anymore. And everybody else's, it ain't going to go that well for them. So the point I'm making is that although we see the hockey players, if you wanted that type of change, for example, you would need the all the players to be on board and or told through new rules and regulations, you would need the referees on board, you would need the owners on board, you would need the league as a whole on board, and you would need the fans on board for that type of change. And again, to make the parallel, one could come out and say, Okay, we're not going to check anymore, our team's not checking, like, that's the way we're going to be, and the other team is checking, and then all of a sudden, the periods are going through well, we'll make that the quarters of a business, right. And all of a sudden, is three, nothing, and then it's five, nothing. And then there's time running out. At one point, they're gonna say, well, we can't keep losing all our games, either here, like we need to start winning. So we're gonna start maybe checking to to be able to try to win this. So I'm trying to make this parallel, not perfect, I get it. But at the end of the day, the idea is that there's a system in place, I sympathize with the actors in it. And yes, there are some bad actors, there's bad actors for all institutions. But there's a lot of good people, there's a lot of people doing the best they can within the structure and systems that we've created. So to your point, it is a mindset and a systemic change that we need to bring about. So to your question, we need all institutions playing their role. Every institution has a role to play. And and I would argue that the biggest thing that we could have businesses do and people around business do is get away from short termism. You alluded to it, it's, it's all good. If you're focused on your purpose, the shareholders, the board, everybody's gonna let you do that. Don't worry about it, as long as you hit your numbers when the quarterly report comes out, so we got to get away from that to your point. And it's not that there's not and people conflate like, it's not that I'm saying not have quarterly reports, but but the idea that you're going to just kind of make these drastic decisions on who the leadership is, and you know, the, the focus of the business on such short term metrics is the problem. So then one's gonna say, Well, why do we do that? Because it's actually a lot, a lot of people would say, so the detriment of the organization to long term to think that way, like, like you mentioned, I agree with so people are gonna why do we do that? We do that because a lot of shareholders, a lot of investors are coming in, and they're saying, Well, I'm only here for a year, I'm here for 18 months, I'm here for maybe two years. Why am I interested on how well this organization is gonna do in 20 years? That doesn't interest me, how am I how do I get to how do I hit my growth numbers? If if it's in 20 years, and what's fascinating in Canada, I'm not an expert for I'm not an expert in Canada, either for sort of the legal point of view, although I'm a lawyer by training, but us might be a bit different. But the the, the responsibility of directors. And, you know, everybody kind of says it's the shareholders. It's the organization is to the health of the organization. And I'm convinced I've said this on a few podcasts, I will say it on yours as well, Maureen, I, I'm convinced at one point somebody is going to start a lawsuit and say, I don't think these directors made decisions that were in the best interest of the organization, because they were short term decisions. They may have been good decisions in the short term, but they were not for the long term. So I don't think this was the right decision for the organization's value for 1020 years down the road, maybe for the next year or two, but not not in the long term. And I think that that will start to be a legal argument that will carry some weight.

Morgan Bailey 39:32

Yeah, I mean, that's gonna be interesting territory when you get into that, and I want to, I want to dig into your analogy a little bit. I love using analogies. I overuse them, let's say so appreciating that. And I would say right now actually even talk about that hockey analogy. Those who are really driving the change right now are the fans. Right? And the fans get to decide like, yes, there may be only a couple players who are checking, but or who are not checking but you know, they're the ones who get to vote with their dollar. Yeah. And I think it's the organization are saying so you might see oh, wow, certain teams or even though maybe they're, they're they're not performing like everyone wants them to. But they're getting all the fans. And fans are now demanding this. They're now boycotting teams who are just checking all the time. Right. So I think we're seeing that. And I think organizations are starting to realize, oh, this is important. And they're starting to realize it, not just from there, not just from the consumers, right, but also from within the organization, because I think you're seeing, you're seeing a greater number of individuals who are like, I want my work to matter, right. And I want to be part of an organization, that's, that's working towards something larger, that's not just towards profit. And the question I have it, particularly when it comes back back to the purpose conversation is, you know, not every organization can be a hospital, or a nonprofit, right? So I think a lot of you know, a tech company may say, like, hey, like, you are manufacturing company, like, hey, what was it mean for us to have purpose? Right, like we're developing? You know, we're developing parts for an aircraft, right? Or we develop, you know, the technology for this random thing that I don't know where it attaches societal good, but it's necessary. So how do you help organizations? Or how can organizations like that find a purpose, it's actually meaningful to them meaningful to their consumers? And it's not simply just saying, as you mentioned, we're going to make a bunch of money, and then we're just going to donate? What's that look like?

Brian Gallant 41:40

Well, let me start off by saying, Morgan, I should be interviewing you, because I think you you make all the points that I'd like to make, and you make them more eloquently than I can. But I want to add to what you said. So you're right. I had the privilege of interviewing 60 Very impressive business leaders in Canada and 30 thought leaders in the space of purpose and stakeholder capitalism. And I was taken back to what extent the consensus was When asked who is applying pressure for you to step up on this stuff, unlinking profit with purpose and being stakeholder centric, I was taken back by how the consensus was employees. It was employees that almost everybody had an acknowledgement that employees were increasingly demanding that their organizations do more on this stuff, step up, and contribute positively to society and planet. I was also a little depressed, when I saw that customers was not on the list as high or as, as enthusiastically as they were answering employees. They all acknowledge it I probably the second stakeholder, but they all acknowledge that. Yeah, you know, paraphrasing kind of the consensus that I felt, yeah, you know, customers are applying some pressure. But at the end of the day, it's still all about price, maybe quality, maybe services, but really price is still dominant. They all acknowledge, though, that they think that that may change with time, as younger generations make up more and more of the market and the cohorts of their customers. So I was a bit I was a bit saddened to hear that because I think that would be a good way in which to apply pressure. Now that said, there's no question there's, there's movements that get created. And I've been thinking about this a bit. This is anecdotal, this is not based on research was informed by research, but not not based on any, I have the sense that customers are doing a good job of applying pressure when a business makes a mistake, or really is pretty flagrantly not stepping up. And then I and then I'm thinking to myself, I don't feel that they're doing it kind of on, you know, the nuanced stuff, like the stuff that they should do, they should really reward that business for doing what they're doing. And they should, you know, maybe kind of, as you mentioned, sort of speak with their purchase choices to send a message to that business, that they're not doing enough. But then I thought about it. And I think I think often to my parents who are I you know, I'm biased, but really good people, they work hard, though, and, and they're paying their bills and they're trying to spend time with their family and I just don't know if they'd have time to kind of get a sense of who is doing good and who is in their opinion doing bad and who should be you know, punished for the lack of a better word or who should be rewarded. So with without that information, how are they to do it then one will say well, they should find out from you know, NGOs or people in the movements and, and media. But there's such a lack of trust right now. There's a there's just lack of trust in institutions we we unfortunately are finding ourselves with with a strain social cohesion or social fabric is, is being pulled and that's you know, everywhere is really based on a few things in my opinion, including social media, including the challenges that we face, including institutions, maybe not doing enough but anyways all that to say I don't have the answer there. don't have the answer somebody listening does I think they could do a lot of good and probably do it profitably, by the way, if they could figure out how we are able to reward and maybe send messages to businesses that aren't stepping up and reward those that are doing well, I should say, and do so in a way that people can trust. to your to your question.

Look, I I'm yeah, there's no question that some businesses will say, Well, look, I just make a widget, like how am I going to be purpose driven with a widget. And, and there's so many ways to be purpose driven, that is positive, right? So you can be purpose driven, because you're tackling climate change, the greatest threat facing humanity, you can be purpose driven, because you are providing a widget that really doesn't do all that much for any societal or planetary challenge, but you're doing so in a more sustainable way than any other business building that widget, or you're building that widget in a way that's way more inclusive, in terms of the profits and the revenues that are coming in. And you're helping your stakeholders from your employees, to the communities in which you operate to a cause that's that's that you care deeply about you, you can find a way to have a purpose that is looking at clean energy, and you're doing it all that much more inclusively. And right? So there's all these realms of purpose. But the, the, at the end of the day, the idea is really simple. Like, is the organization positive? Is it a positive thing for society, which increasingly includes the planet? And and it would be short sighted, unfortunately, which I say, unfortunately, because I get that as complex, but it's it's short sighted to only say, well, our widget helps address a certain societal challenge. But then, the way in which we go about it, exacerbates 15 challenges, right, so that that concept becomes becomes complex. So going back to my parents, they may see a business say, well, that widget is really helpful to tackle a societal challenge. So should I not reward it, but the way in which they're going about it might be causing more problems or exacerbating other challenges. Whereas another one may be doing something that has nothing to do with tackling a societal challenge is literally just a widget. But at the end of the day, the way they're doing it is super helpful in creating more inclusive, fairer sustainable society. So So that's hard to decipher, too. So. So that would be the message I would give anybody listening thinking that like, Well, how do I make my organization purposeful? There's different types. And there's, there's different focuses, and there's different ways in which you do so.

Morgan Bailey 47:39

Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, I, what I like to say is you can build purpose into into the DNA of the organization, from how it does it sourcing to how it pays his employees, to, to how it, you know, how it navigates diversity and inclusion back to how it markets, right, that there's so many ways to do that in a way that's like, oh, yeah, this is generative, right, this is generating more for society than then taking it away. Right. And I think it, I think there's, there's that mindset gap that needs to be bridged, which is really like how we need to, and this is where we need to step away from the short term planning, right? Because, you know, hey, we employ these marketing tactics, we go with the suppliers and things of that nature, like, we're gonna have a, we're gonna have a much better quarterly return, right? However, you may be, you know, degrading the planet, and by doing so that that provide, you know, that supplier may not have a very sustainable supply chain, right, if they're wiping out a force or something like that, which means that at some point, that's not a very reliable supplier, that's actually going to hurt your bottom line in the long term, because you haven't developed a relationship with the same supply chain. Right. So I think there's like it, it's a longer term thing. And I think like when you say, like, you know, you haven't figured it out. I'm like, I think we as humanity are in this really interesting, pivotal moment, where we don't know what this actually looks like. And I think that's okay, we're figuring it out. But this is brand new territory, right? We've been doing business in a certain way, for, you know, you know, hundreds 1000s of years, right. And we're starting to realize, oh, there's a different way to do this in the global economy. I mean, heck, that the largest, probably like corporation that ever started started that the Dutch East India Company, which was, you know, hundreds and hundreds of years ago, they had this global empire that ran businesses very similar to how we do it today, which is unfortunate. Right? And now we're seeing like, oh, wow, this is having this is having an impact. And I think that the last point I'll make on this is, I think what we've realizes early in the corporate world, we can externalize the impact, right? We could say great, we're gonna provide you this nice thing, but the labor the resources, whatnot, that was somewhere else Right. And now we're seeing this. There, those boundaries are falling off, we're seeing the and the global impacts, right? We're seeing the impact of our iPhone, right, we're seeing the impact of our labor practices like happening to us. So at a certain point, it's like, wow, we can no longer outsources all that all the bad, nasty stuff that we could, you know, used to be in a far off land. Hey, that's not coming right back to you know, everyone. Right. And, and I also realized that, you know, it's acknowledging that's a very western centric point of view, right? Because people in other countries have been like, now we've been dealing we we've been living the impact, right? We've been living in the, the squalor that you've externalized. Right. And now, you know, as their voices, you know, increase like, we're, we're starting to realize that, wow, there's, there is a big impact here. And like, this is not okay, we're starting to see and feel the true impact of the way we do things.

Brian Gallant 50:54

Well, okay, I look, again, I should be interviewing you the, the example I want to give to, I think enhance the point that you made or kind of give a visual to people, there's two people that I interviewed. For that report that I mentioned, they were super engaged on this topic, like I was, so I was really impressed. I learned a lot from them. Significant business leader, prominent business leaders here in Canada, and very sincere about their efforts to be purpose and stakeholder driven. And they said we did a study, because we wanted to know who is kind of, again, paraphrase who is being treated, not fairly in our organization, and in our sphere of influence. And both of them, I don't know if they talk to each other or not, but both of them came to the same conclusion in that exercise. And it was actually a procurement that they were doing, that the organization was doing for services. I think both of them, if not, at least one of them was basically the canteen, the the food service that they were getting, I think maybe the other one was the same, but maybe add in another kind of external, external last service that was coming in point being is that the procurement for that was so driven by price, that their study, their internal study showed that that was the sphere in their sphere of influence, that was who was being treated, the most unfairly. And they they went to rectify it. And everybody can imagine what happened. I mean, the people that were working in their building, doing the services became happier, more productive, the food was better, right? Like, and then they're there. I would imagine I'm extrapolating here, but I would imagine that businesses is better position financially and for a productive point of view to do more things, which can then help help increase the quality for that organization itself, that that identified that so. So I find, I find that such a good example of thinking through even if I just make a widget that has no impact really on a societal challenge, the way I make it makes a difference in the people in my sphere of influence, and my stakeholders how I treat them and, and how I'm helping them create value for themselves and for for their organizations, how I'm creating value for the community, all of that matters immensely. And and look, I just think that you should be interviewed, because I think the points that you're making are bang on. And one thing that I I've been saying every time I've had an interview, I had an interview about a totally different topic. And I just brought this up, because it's the thing that I just want to keep putting out there. And I think we can draw so many parallels. I will point are we and by we I mean countries that have immense Koch capacity and have been able to logistically get their vaccines out, when will we be able to send some to those that don't. And why I find this so frustrating is because obviously from a moral point of view, but I want to spend time on that part. I mean, that's the most important one, but I won't spend time on that. This is an example of it is in our best interest to to help countries get vaccinated as well. So we have less variance. And and even if it is in our best, very direct best interest, we're still having a tough time. So to your point. I mean, there are things that we do that have an impact in our communities. Yes, with our stakeholders, yes, but then it can have ripple effects across the globe. And then over the last two years and change. I mean, if we needed any indication as to as to how we were, or any examples of how we were, and are linked. I think we got it. I think we got that example, in a very significant way over the last few years.

Morgan Bailey 54:33

Yeah, that's a very, very poignant example. Absolutely agree. And, you know, I think, again, I think we're building the muscle. We're building the muscle to understand how to do that because it's uncomfortable. It's uncomfortable to make these decisions. We're not used to it, right? There's fear of like, well, I'm putting resources here. You know, I need them in the short term, and again, it goes goes into more of a scarcity versus abundance mindset. Now and our Last few minutes, I want to touch on a little bit. You had a shift recently. Yeah. So I want you to announce that shift. And then maybe as we come to close, the question that lingers in my mind is seeing is as you take on this new role, right? How was purpose going to play a role? And what you do?

Brian Gallant 55:19

Well, well, thank you for, for bringing us to this. So I'm very proud to be the CEO of an organization that was newly created called Space Canada. The goal is to advance the space sector in our country, but also work with international partners across the globe. And I have to tell you the story of how I how I landed upon this amazing opportunity, I was approached, and my first reaction was a positive one. Because I was like, Wow, that sounds so cool. Sounds innovative, it sounds emerging, emerging topic. Personally, kind of Eve, I'll even say kind of selfishly, I like I like, responsibilities, positions, jobs, opportunities, where I'm going to learn. And I was like, Oh, this would be something that I get to learn tons. I'd really be in a in a knowledge, knowledge absorbing role here. So I was really excited. And then I started looking into the space sector, and I started looking into what's happening for Canada and across the globe. And I was just, I was fascinated. And I was so pumped, because I underestimated like I think a lot of people do. Because we think of space. And we think of kind of exploration, we think of maybe some of the pop culture references that come to mind. But we don't think about, at least I didn't, I can tell you that the impact that space has on our daily lives on the challenges that concern us, like climate change inequalities, things that we practically need to be thinking about, like our sovereignty and our security, and, and the way in which it will create opportunities that will help us be investing in r&d, investing in science, investing, I hope and international collaboration, and creating jobs of the future. So I was so excited. And when it comes to purpose, if I hadn't had that reflection that we mentioned at the top of this interview, I may not have realized that this would be an amazing opportunity for me to advance things that I care deeply about, and that that I've chosen as my purpose, right when I was 15 years old, although a lot of people probably be more focused on space than being a politician. At that age, I was focused on being a politician. And I picked that as the position to try to make a difference. So had you asked me at 1520, even 30? Would you be interested in doing something like what I'm embarking on today? I would have been I don't really think so. I mean, that sounds kind of cool. But no, no, like, I want to do politics, and I want to do government and I want to do public policy. And I want to advance things that will help address inequalities and sustainability challenges and all that good stuff. So so it was fascinating for me, because that reflection I've had since leaving politics and government, about purpose, being something that's larger than a position has helped me to realize right away, right, like we said, purpose needs to drive choices right away come to the conclusion that this is a great opportunity for me to advance the purpose that I had chosen for myself when I was 10 years old. So I'm really excited about it. And I'm learning tons already, there's time, there's so many enthusiast of space as well, which is almost overwhelming, but But you know, fills me up with energy. And I look forward to just doing what I can to advance this important topic in this important sector based on what it can do to help us tackle societal, economic and planetary challenges. Alright,

Morgan Bailey 58:49

so you know, no small task. Exactly, you know, you're not wanting to go for the small things. Really appreciate this conversation, I feel like it probably could have gone on for another hour. Really, really appreciating that and the wisdom and the experience you're bringing to this and the lens of both your background and politics, your work with business, your work with business leaders now taking this in to own role as CEO of space Canada. So I just really want to thank you for your time here. And if the listeners you know, want to find out more about space Canada, or about the you know, the Center for the purpose of the corporation or you directly how might they do that?

Brian Gallant 59:28

Corporate purpose.ca for the web, we use the acronym CCPC to describe and go to www dot space. T then dash it dad French dash canada.ca So space dash canada.ca. And you can follow me on LinkedIn to reach out if there's anything I can do to help you with your with your purpose and with the stuff you're focused on. Happy to do. So.

Morgan Bailey 59:52

Awesome. Brian, thanks so much. I feel lit up after this conversation. So really appreciate your time.

Brian Gallant 59:58

Thank you, Morgan. And thanks everyone. Listen

Morgan Bailey 1:00:01

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